UK FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

January 17, 2003

INTERVIEWER:

Do you think that these weapons constitute a material breach of Iraq's obligations under UN resolutions?

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

Well we'll have to wait and see I think. Our response at this stage is cautious. We'll look at the detail of the evidence when Hans Blix the senior inspector provides it. There's no rush to judgement.

Hans Blix will see Tony Blair later today to give him a general briefing and it's a pre-existing meeting but comes at an opportune time. And we'll also have to wait for the Blix report to the UN on 27 of January. We're strongly backing Dr Blix's efforts here.

As Mark Grozdeki [said] earlier in the interview, the inspectors need time to look at this particular finding and also to make a general assessment of how the inspections are going.

INTERVIEWER:

Well you say no rush to judgement. In Washington there are some voices which believe that judgement day is just around the corner it seems.

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

Well you asked about material breach. We'll have to see what the inspectors say. It's a matter for them if there is any evidence they want to bring before the Security Council to do so.

Each member of the Security Council will then have to take a view on the nature of the evidence and whether that constitutes material breach. Material breach means something significant. Some find, behaviour or pattern of behaviour which is serious and amongst such breaches could be Saddam Hussein obstructing or impeding the inspectors, trying to conceal things, intimidating witnesses or a pattern of behaviour which shows that in essence Iraq does not intend to comply with [UN Security Council Resolution] 1441.

INTERVIEWER:

There's an interesting paradox really I suppose here isn't there Mr O'Brien? It's clear that Iraq has not complied with a series of resolutions over many years. That much is beyond debate.

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

That's absolutely true.

INTERVIEWER:

It is also clear that most people in this country think that Saddam Hussein is a pretty nasty character and they are convinced that he's done some things which they would not wish to see in any country that they lived in. And yet there is [in] every survey that's done a substantial minority, sometimes a majority of people who are deeply worried about this war and don't want to see it happen. How do you convince them?

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

Well I'm not trying to convince them that we need to go to war today. Our aim today is to disarm Saddam Hussein of his weapons of mass destruction without war if Saddam Hussein will allow that. He must comply with 1441. So at this stage I'm not surprised by all the opinion polls because there's nobody making a case for going to war today.

INTERVIEWER:

You see that the Prime Minister is not saying go to war today of course, but what he is saying is look I tell you that there is a threat which is so serious that if it doesn't disappear military action is justified and it's that that appears to be meeting with considerable scepticism in the country and particularly from your point of view and the Prime Minister's point of view, in the Labour Party in Parliament. I mean anybody who talks to Labour MPs for more than two minutes realises there is deep unease. Do you accept that?

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

Well of course people always will want to be cautious about any thing which might lead to war. It should be the last thing that we do after we've tried everything we can and of course 1441 gives Saddam Hussein a final opportunity in the words of the resolution to comply with international law.

We know Saddam has chemical and biological weapons. That he's been trying to develop nuclear weapons. He's a threat to the region and the wider world. He's repeatedly miscalculated with the invasion of Kuwait and Iran. If he gets nuclear weapons he'll be more difficult to deal with. He has chemical weapons and has used them in the past. There is substantial concern he could miscalculate again and use nuclear weapons. And of course we do know if we do nothing, I'd say to these MPs and others, if we do nothing then what will be the message given out? Other countries will get the message that the UN resolution can be ignored, international law doesn't count. Other countries could get nuclear weapons with impunity and the world would be a much more dangerous place than it is now.

INTERVIEWER:

I understand the argument that the Prime Minister is putting. But if you don't find any of the chemical weapons do you think you could justify war to the people?

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

Well we'll have to look at the evidence. We've said very clearly we're going through the UN route. We're giving the inspectors the opportunity to carry out their inspections. But remember as far as Saddam Hussein is concerned 1441 is not just about him sitting back and waiting for the inspectors to find something. It actually imposes obligations for him to actively declare what he's got and assist the inspectors in disarming him. Now what we know is that the inspectors are concerned about what's happening. Hans Blix said that yesterday. What we want to do is take this carefully, cautiously, give the inspectors opportunity to do their work and then see what the report is on 27 January.

INTERVIEWER:

As I said when we began Mr O'Brien, Saddam Hussein is still speaking actually but he's said various things this morning. Baghdad its people and leadership is determined to force the Mongols of our age to commit suicide at its gates. It's a message of utter defiance in preparation for war.

FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER:

Well it's the usual bellicose rhetoric from Saddam Hussein. I'm not sure that it's worthy of much of a response. It's the sort of thing we've, we've heard for years from him. What we need to do I think is make sure that we pursue this UN route, that we make sure that we give Saddam Hussein the opportunity to comply which we've done. But it is a final opportunity. We can not allow him to develop weapons of mass destruction. He will be a threat to all of us.